Hello & welcome
Forums > E-forum 3 session 1 > Hello & welcome
| Author | Message |
|---|---|
| Strategic Director 13th May 2008 7:20 PM |
Hello everyone and welcome to e-forum session 3. Can those who are with us sign in by saying a brief hello. (Also please sign out when you leave the discussion permanently so we're not still talking to people!) We'll start in a few moments once we know who's here. |
| A Gardiner 13th May 2008 7:22 PM |
 Hello
Looking forward to an interesting discussion. A Gardiner |
| Strategic Director 13th May 2008 7:22 PM |
I should add that not everyone will have had time to read the background reading available at http://www.theethosproject.co.uk/page/E-fora-background-reading_29/1.html It's generally better if we can get that done in time but life is busy and so forth... if you haven't had a chance yet, you may wish to just glance quickly at the "analysis of school time allocations" and see what questions / thoughts it prompts. |
| Strategic Director 13th May 2008 7:28 PM |
Hi Albert. With a bit of luck people will join us shortly. Meanwhile... I thought you might be interested in the options 2 (pupils and people) and 4 (dialogue / student voice) from the PPT file. Let's ask about 4 and as folks join us they can read the conversation we've already had... do you think schools genuinely try to access student voice or not? |
| Jenny Wager 13th May 2008 7:32 PM |
Hi Jenny here - but haven't had a minute today to look at materials - will do now speak to you soon |
| A Gardiner 13th May 2008 7:34 PM |
As a collective i feel that they do however, another agenda is present - data/assessment/teaching and learning etc. It is my view that if the students are happy the above elements will follow. As they say attainment is only one aspect of achievement. It is often the case that the wrong people are tasked with championing 'student voice' when it is clear that they are out of their depth, maybe we should ask the students. |
| Strategic Director 13th May 2008 7:38 PM |
Let's play Devil's Advocate and I'm going to say that all schools do a great job of student voice. My arguments would be... * they invite students to have a say * they do make changes when students ask * teachers cannot choose tutor group reps, it's democratic * students can criticise teachers and we listen Isn't that good student voice? |
| Personalised Learning Director 13th May 2008 7:41 PM |
Hi Sorry I'm late |
| Strategic Director 13th May 2008 7:49 PM |
Quote A Gardiner: another agenda is present - data/assessment/teaching and learning etc. Can I throw in the thought that I know that students in your context see you as an effective figure in the "Assertive Mentoring" programme - yet AM is designed as an OPPOSITION to "Soft" mentoring ("how are you? how are things going?") - AM is proud to call itself "hard" mentoring because it thinks it's only real mentoring if students have fixed targets relating to teaching and learning - so how do you reconcile your preference for happy students (which I know is your practice style in general, too, and I think you're good at) with your place in the AM programme?
(Folks in general might wish to check out the article on AM in this month's SecEd... it explicitly rubbishes the idea of "soft" mentoring, using "soft" in a derisory way.) |
| Personalised Learning Director 13th May 2008 7:56 PM |
I completely agree with Albert's point: Quote A Gardiner: It is my view that if the students are happy the above elements will follow.
In my experience, providing a learner-centric, respectful and dynamic learning environment along with equiping young people with the tools to access processes for learning, results in the attainment of the above |
| Strategic Director 13th May 2008 8:01 PM |
Quote Personalised Learning Director: providing a learner-centric, respectful and dynamic learning environment along with equiping young people with the tools to access processes for learning... Devil's Advocate again... We can't ask students to make up their minds. Even if they are able, even if they are good people, they're apathetic mostly. Collectively, peer pressure heightens the apathy and increases the extent to which it is cool to demur from doing things productively. We need to make decisions for young people and compel them where necessary. It's for their own good. They can be happy * at home * when they leave * once they're qualified - and are glad we forced them to it Don't mistake happiness for sloth and self-obsession. Mostly this is what young people aim for, thinking it's happiness. True happiness comes from achievement so we must work them hard. Yes? No? (I really dislike arguing this side... someone argue back please!) |
| Personalised Learning Director 13th May 2008 8:05 PM |
Quote Strategic Director: in this month's SecEd... it explicitly rubbishes the idea of "soft" mentoring, using "soft" in a derisory way. It’s sort of our fault for allowing the use of “soft” to describe social and emotional mentoring. If we relate it back to ECM or Curriculum 08 etc it fits within a target framework and can therefore be totally justified. We should stop referring to “soft skills” too! They’re complex social, interpersonal and behavioural skills – easy to rubbish if you struggle to communicate. |
| operational director 13th May 2008 8:15 PM |
Isn't it just too much of a risk? If your performance is judged on "your" examination results, spending time and energy cultivating student voice, with no certainty that the "results" will pay off. We need to change the agenda in the way that we have already set out: - have the debate - model the ways of doing it - provide evidence - both qualitative, against things like ECM, but also on exam performance terms Very interesting debates this week about SATs - last night's Panorama was good on this, as was R4's Today. The School Minister's response appeared to amount to: "children need as much exam practice as they can get, because they've got lots of exams to get through" |
| Jenny Wager 13th May 2008 8:19 PM |
Hi It's Jenny From my limited knowledge of mainstream pupils - those who really know what they want, how to ge there etc are prepared to "drive" themselves. It's the pupils who don't know who are the real concern - how do schools/organisations give them the learning environment to enable them to know "who they are and where they want to go". Schools with an academic focus are not going anywhere with this group - as I'm sure everyone realises (except the bureaucrats possibly in Government)- and is demonstrated by the time analysis. Lateral thinking is needed based on a sound philosphical basis: the right soil preparation with grow the best plants. Going back to the topic about "student voice" - what is a good definition of student voice - or is that not really the phrase to describe real dialogue betweenaa young person and teacher (at individual level) or between student body and school (organisation level). Yes - schools will have good practice at organisational level but that doesn't mean it will be there for the individual level - is this where personalised learning / individual education perograms come in???? I hope this makes sense |
| Personalised Learning Director 13th May 2008 8:19 PM |
Quote Strategic Director: Quote Personalised Learning Director:
providing a learner-centric, respectful and dynamic learning environment along with equiping young people with the tools to access processes for learning... Devil's Advocate again... We can't ask students to make up their minds. Even if they are able, even if they are good people, they're apathetic mostly. Collectively, peer pressure heightens the apathy and increases the extent to which it is cool to demur from doing things productively. We need to make decisions for young people and compel them where necessary. It's for their own good. They can be happy * at home * when they leave * once they're qualified - and are glad we forced them to it Don't mistake happiness for sloth and self-obsession. Mostly this is what young people aim for, thinking it's happiness. True happiness comes from achievement so we must work them hard. Yes? No? (I really dislike arguing this side... someone argue back please!) Alright then, I'll take the bait. This outlook is right. Absolutely. If in our classrooms, we believe that young people are at best apathetic and at worst sociopathic, that's exactly what we'll get! Perhaps the cries of apathy are bourn of ex-listless teens who never felt a burning in their belly to challenge a classroom regime that is irrelevant, inappropriate and just plain dull! |
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